tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post1598857748062798319..comments2023-12-09T00:33:24.572-08:00Comments on Novel Matters: Watch Your Mouth, Young ManBonnie Grovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-9982208669671202442009-08-27T16:33:18.000-07:002009-08-27T16:33:18.000-07:00I wouldn't have been offended if the word had ...I wouldn't have been offended if the word had been left in. As it was used, it was defining something in a positive way (meaning that the brand was REALLY good). While I understand the decision to make the edit, I think in general we get a little too hung up on things like this. But that's just me :+}Jennifer AlLeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18178922554247015759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-52712167790039144702009-08-25T18:47:26.406-07:002009-08-25T18:47:26.406-07:00I think this is a good point. The younger generati...I think this is a good point. The younger generations (mine included)are desensitized to the most harsh curse words, even Christian youth. I think it's important not to compromise our standards but it's hard not to look like a "holy roller" either. <br /><br />I like to be real in my writing though. I just wrote a short story in my blog about a women I encountered at my job. I struggled with putting in a curse word in the story (that came from her), and ultimately used it because I wanted the reader to feel as awkward as I did when she said it to me. Now that I read this, it makes me question my decision. I like that. This is keeping me honest. Thanks!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06113453542684679126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-74912028407930620992009-08-25T11:43:53.878-07:002009-08-25T11:43:53.878-07:00Loving the conversation we're having here. Jus...Loving the conversation we're having here. Just last night I was reading Gilead by Marilynne Robinson and came across this gem (the book is chock-o-block with gems and I highly recommend this slim yet weighty book) She writes: "[. . .] how the times change, and the same words that carry a good many people into the howling wilderness in one generation are irksome or meaningless in the next."<br /><br />This speaks to Andy's point as well as many other's who have mentioned cultural shift as a factor in which words Christians find acceptable - at least in print.<br /><br />We will always wrestle with the seed of subjectivity, I think.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07377561446554284802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-46680473102108568822009-08-25T04:19:43.598-07:002009-08-25T04:19:43.598-07:00Language use is so cultural. Perhaps it's just...Language use is so cultural. Perhaps it's just my generation, or the fact that I have non-Christian friends and read widely and even watch TV on occasion, but honestly, I don't think I'd even have noticed if (killer) had been left in. Actually, perhaps I would have, if I thought twice about the context. It might even have raised a giggle, cos I appreciate people who keep it real - especially when said people are on a very visible pedestal in a notoriously cleancut industry. :)<br /><br />There are some words that are a little bit cheeky and others that are simply ugly. IMHO, there's a difference. Perhaps there's something of a devilish anti-establishment streak in me, but I enjoyed the thought of Andy's cheekiness, even if it did get edited out in the end. I think we can trip over ourselves trying not to offend anyone or pursing our lips at those who insult our own sensibilities, but to me it all seems a wee bit Pharisaical. As Patti pointed out, there are bigger issues in life. Jesus certainly offended plenty of people with his choice of words, and I know we all agree that he was still a pretty (killer) guy...Karen Schravemadenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-55534100663157857212009-08-24T20:33:10.211-07:002009-08-24T20:33:10.211-07:00One of the reasons why I write and primarily read ...One of the reasons why I write and primarily read Christian fiction is because of the language and romantic scenes I might encounter in the general market. I had an experience a few years ago where I was given several highly recommended top bestsellers that had very explicit scenes in them. I trusted the person who gave me the books, and put them away when I realized what was happening. But I can't "un-read" the little bit that I did. It will forever be in my memory, unfortunately. So will the language in my 11th grade required reading, like "Of Mice and Men". Actually, I didn't finish that book simply because of the language in it.<br /><br />I feel the same way about cursing and sex scenes: they just need to be appropriate to the novel. You can say a lot without saying too much. You can say enough without going all the way, whether that is in language or in depiction. Sometimes cursing can be appropriate to the scene. Lisa Samson's novel is an excellent example of that. She took several risks in that book and I was really impressed--and appreciative--by what she wrote.<br /><br />I personally don't curse because I feel that it is very extreme language and that if I were to let one fly, I'd want the situation to match the degree of the word. If I curse after I stub my toe, what will I say if I'm in a car accident? That being said, I have no problem with my friends who do curse mildly. If I'm around someone who only seems to speak in profanity, I do everything I can to leave. It's not so much offensive as it makes me want to go out and buy that person an excellent thesaurus.Kristen Torres-Torohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15903038121623389560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-63426553442865242282009-08-24T19:59:26.698-07:002009-08-24T19:59:26.698-07:00Great post and not one that anyone else I believe ...Great post and not one that anyone else I believe have discussed.<br />Rarely do I curse, when I do it is because the word falls out of my mouth before I had a chance to zip my lips. <br />Why would we want to be like the world and use language that might would tarnish our Christian witness. <br />The world does a lot of things that we as Christians don't need to be doing.Annettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693346981997723405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-32093771261269407272009-08-24T17:11:15.063-07:002009-08-24T17:11:15.063-07:00Unfortunately, the blogger gremlin also ate my pos...Unfortunately, the blogger gremlin also ate my post. Honestly. Hotel internet connections are overrated.<br />I had written a baseball/potty-mouth analogy about our blog decision to bunt rather than to risk a pop-fly, so maybe it's best that the whole thing disappeared.<br /><br />While I am not offended by mild language, I prefer not to read it. If it's in character, a simple, "he swore" can suffice, if used sparingly. <br /><br />In real life, my own kids (20-somethings) have always had friends who came from disadvantaged backgrounds, and most of them know that my husband is ordained. Some of these kids even lived with us a time or two when their parents told them to leave. They usually tone down their language around us, but I always listen through the words and turn off my filter. Their language is such a minor issue compared to the rest of the stuff they deal with. It's just not that important. But I realize that I need to extend the same consideration to readers who are offended by language.Debbie Fuller Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09174333267329587740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-85843869517973379062009-08-24T12:59:44.232-07:002009-08-24T12:59:44.232-07:00Like a diamond with so many facets, so is this con...Like a diamond with so many facets, so is this conversation. I grew up in a conservative Christian home, so my language is conservative. I don't have an urge to swear if I hurt myself. I usually say, "Owww! That hurts!" or, "Man!". For me, it is about my understanding of personal holiness. What do I think Jesus would do? That is what I want to be like.If he was writing my book, what would He do?<br /><br />That doesn't mean that others have to live by my standard, though. What is the connection between personal holiness and public integrity?<br /><br />As a pastor, would I use those words from the pulpit?<br /><br />The other thing about language, is most swearing is lazy. Is that really the best word you can use to express your emotion? Some guy used a swear on a blog - both Christians, the blog about emerging church issues. I stopped reading the blog because of that. They don't miss me, and I don't miss that particular conversation. I asked them about it, but they were convinced it was the best they could do. I think it was laziness to resort to "base" English for discussion.<br /><br />Does it really add depth to a character? The more chilling villains are the one who on the surface are quite polished... just some thoughts.<br /><br />Word verification: Hymestly - Speaking in such a way as to use 4 stanzas and a chorus (exptra points for organ music in the background)Steve Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332880875202358601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-40236241829141533562009-08-24T10:28:22.632-07:002009-08-24T10:28:22.632-07:00I have a soft spot for people who curse. Back in t...I have a soft spot for people who curse. Back in the day, we had new believers coming in bunches with mouths in need of Irish Spring. (My husband should be raising his hand at this point.)<br /><br />You have no idea how sweet it is to hear these babies cursing for Jesus. (Man! I bleeping love Him!) Just couldn't bring myself to curb their enthusiasm.<br /><br />These days we have a sanitized bunch of pew sitters who rarely get excited about anything. <br /><br />(Man! I bleeping miss the old days...)Connie Brzowskihttp://www.conniebrz.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-61593257110086707622009-08-24T09:55:50.943-07:002009-08-24T09:55:50.943-07:00Raises a publishing question for me. Authors and ...Raises a publishing question for me. Authors and editors go back and forth on edits. Who has the final say? Do authors ever find that words were changed after the "final" edit without their knowledge?PatriciaWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04572087157439187319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-9043467018850161422009-08-24T09:53:06.306-07:002009-08-24T09:53:06.306-07:00by the time I saw it, the post had been edited. I&...by the time I saw it, the post had been edited. I'm glad Andy wasn't offended by the editing. After discussing it amongst yourselves, was he consulted before or after the edit?<br /><br />I occasionally edit author interviews for my blog--correcting spelling or obvious grammatical errors--because I want the authors to put their best foot forward, and so do I. However, I'm not sure I'd edit someone's choice of words, even if I didn't agree with them. <br /><br />Writing is about expressing one's self, and that was how Andy chose to express himself. More than likely, he really didn't give it a lot of thought. Perhaps he should have, given the context for the post. But in the end, it was his choice.<br /><br />As to whether he would hate to see that in 10 years in print, I don't think anyone, including Andy, can say how he'll feel then.<br /><br />In fiction, I have a problem with profanity used gratuitiously. I don't expect my fiction, including Christian fiction, to be sanitized. I do expect the vocabulary to fit the character, and for the author to be selective about how "choice" words are utilized.PatriciaWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04572087157439187319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-66552375340575924992009-08-24T09:41:42.042-07:002009-08-24T09:41:42.042-07:00Thanks for sticking up for me, Bonnie.
True, I wa...Thanks for sticking up for me, Bonnie.<br /><br />True, I wasn't surprised to have the word edited, but I was the one who pointed out to Bonnie that not only did "sucks" make the cut, but killer is actually more violent of a word than (killer).<br /><br />The more important question, I feel, regarding language is about what the author intends. If the author intends offense, then editing because it would cause offense is missing the point. Problem, as it's been pointed out, is that language changes, and therefore so does offense.<br /><br />I did not intend offense, so for the sake of the post, the edit was cool with me. Everyone needs an editor.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09749113851362324559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-61292486362866336552009-08-24T09:29:48.964-07:002009-08-24T09:29:48.964-07:00Let me make it clear that the word Andy used isn&#...Let me make it clear that the word Andy used isn't one most would consider especially vile. No F-bombs were detonated anywhere near his guest post. <br /><br />It was mild enough to warrant a discussion about the word and its inclusion.<br /><br />Andy is a wonderful guy, a strong Christian with a great sense of mischief and fun.<br /><br />Just to add some perspective to what we are discussing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07377561446554284802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-84327338344427894382009-08-24T09:11:10.516-07:002009-08-24T09:11:10.516-07:00Um. The last sentence of my last comment was supp...Um. The last sentence of my last comment was supposed to read, <br /><br />". . .so this worked out great."<br /><br />Toldja I appreciate editors.Latayne C Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06133535124591010838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-55098330414214672972009-08-24T08:52:24.023-07:002009-08-24T08:52:24.023-07:00Well, the blogger gremlin ate my post. Really.
W...Well, the blogger gremlin ate my post. Really.<br /><br />What I wanted to say is that I've always really appreciated editors. I tell them they're like the friend who tells you your slip is showing before you go out in public.<br /><br />So, applying the golden rule and my prodigious seniority in life...<br /><br />If I were Andy, I wouldn't want to have that in print when I looked at it, say ten years from now. I believe he would have had to know that anyone who asks him to guest blog would have some say about anything he said that would be offensive to some of our readers (and to some of us.)<br /><br />And he was unoffended by our editing -- to this worked out great.Latayne C Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06133535124591010838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-29185740251097054042009-08-24T08:40:10.795-07:002009-08-24T08:40:10.795-07:00I've used a couple of mild words in my novel, ...I've used a couple of mild words in my novel, because I just couldn't imagine the character speaking any differently. The odd thing is, I don't use that language myself and would probably be embarrassed if asked to read the passages in question aloud, mild as they are. If an editor objects, I'll change them, but it won't be easy.<br /><br />Along the same lines, my husband and I both have a word in our vocabularies that we staunchly insist is not swearing that the other person just as staunchly objects to. I have another rarely used word that some people consider swearing and others do not. Dictionaries are equally divided. So there definitely is a strong element of subjectivity in all this.Janethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04600030574995481267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-9150877325461889442009-08-24T06:47:19.556-07:002009-08-24T06:47:19.556-07:00Interesting! I read Andy's post early in the m...Interesting! I read Andy's post early in the morning, and never noticed the word, it may have already been changed. In any event, I wasn't offended. The argument could be made that I have just become desensitized to the use of bad language. It would certainly have legs. <br /><br />I don't know that words can be evil in and of themselves. It is all the meaning and context conveyed on them by both writer and reader. Unfortunately, everyone comes at words with a unique perspective based on their experiences, so there isn't really any way to ensure that everyone is reading something as you intended. <br /><br />On the whole I think you all were wise to err on the side of gentleness. It typically turns out that way when we choose to act in love rather than the desire to shock.Lisa Karon Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02175430876079208723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-26829434805277447412009-08-24T06:12:13.141-07:002009-08-24T06:12:13.141-07:00I finished my second novel in 2004 but it wasn'...I finished my second novel in 2004 but it wasn't published (by moi)until 2008. Some characters used a few expletives and I used a similar method to Lisa Samson's and was pleased to see her choice was very similar to mine.<br /><br />I, too, left my four-letter language skills when I met Jesus. I'd worked very hard to force those nasty words out of my mouth--they didn't come easy in my case.<br /><br />I rarely read outside of Christian fiction these days because it's the market I choose. However, I'm reading a secular cop mystery right now (because I won the novel) and getting the sexual metaphors and four letter words splattered into the story. And, yes, they seem "natural" to the story, but necessary? Not really. Any writer can plug in expletives and sexual innuendoes--doesn't require any special writing. And this book reminds me why I left the general market.<br /><br />All writers must choose their words. As Christians, we serve God not man. That usually makes a difference in the words we choose. This author won't condemn those who write one way or the other--it's God they answer to, not me.<br /><br />However, I will not throw in the F-bomb just because I can. And, frankly, I don't want to read it. Everyday we hear it if we go out in the world. I don't mind eluding to it or other cuss words, but I don't need them on the page to figure out the attitude.<br /><br />I think some of the younger set of Christians think they can talk however they please and do so just to offend judgmental Christians. Says more about them and their choices than it does about making a "grand statement" about life in general or publishing at large. It also speaks to their interpretations of sin . . .Nicolehttp://hopeofglory.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.com