tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post7407303648122593320..comments2023-12-09T00:33:24.572-08:00Comments on Novel Matters: Archetypes in FictionBonnie Grovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-71443559543695880802010-10-16T15:22:48.872-07:002010-10-16T15:22:48.872-07:00Ellen: I wonder if the reason scapegoat isn't ...Ellen: I wonder if the reason scapegoat isn't an archetype is because it is a role that is often thrust upon others, rather than one that is attained by the person. Just a thought.Bonnie Grovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-67340472666208603412010-10-15T14:49:18.509-07:002010-10-15T14:49:18.509-07:00Thanks Megan, I've bookmarked "The Writer...Thanks Megan, I've bookmarked "The Writer's Journey", sounds like a great read.Karen @ a house full of sunshinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17787916466155321686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-73312313518246129722010-10-15T10:31:00.986-07:002010-10-15T10:31:00.986-07:00Think I must have dozed through any lessons on arc...Think I must have dozed through any lessons on archetypes I received in college. So I did the next best thing, referenced it on the internet and found a list with more info than I needed or wanted. But I was surprised 'scapegoat' wasn't listed. (I read Du Maurier's book by said title years ago.) Perhaps it isn't an archetype at all?Ellen Staleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-71694820748104173452010-10-14T19:30:19.111-07:002010-10-14T19:30:19.111-07:00Karen: The great thing about the community at this...Karen: The great thing about the community at this blog is that we are all learning together - none of us has all the pieces. I've learned many things from your comments here. Isn't it great!<br /><br />Megan: Thanks for the book recommendation. I haven't heard of that one. I'll keep an eye out!<br /><br />Henrietta: Certainly, it's common to see archetypes shifting and changing throughout a story. This is especially true of the hero of a story, the character readers expect to see radical change in. I like the way you think, Henrietta!Bonnie Grovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-54792653809481082012010-10-14T18:16:21.601-07:002010-10-14T18:16:21.601-07:00The first I heard of archetypes was in a high scho...The first I heard of archetypes was in a high school classroom. My paper involved Merlin and the teacher spouted off about wizard archetypes. I felt confined. What did he mean there are a limited number of original cast members?! He later gave me an award: most challenging student. It was his first year teaching. <br />This is the first time I have heard of archetypes with a twist and I am excited and intrigued. And playing them off each other?! Very stimulating. <br />Is it possible to say of the Parable of the Merchant that the Seeker becomes the Warrior, willing to go to all lengths for victory?<br />With the seeds the Sower is so careless and indiscriminate. Is this a twisted Archetype?Henrietta Frankenseenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-77516900370959298512010-10-14T02:10:35.672-07:002010-10-14T02:10:35.672-07:00Karen, look up Christopher Vogler's "The ...Karen, look up Christopher Vogler's "The Writer's Journey". It's probably the best book I've ever read about the craft of fiction, and in it he goes into detail about these archetypal characters and their role in storytelling. The book also has a list of further references if you wanted to explore the concept further. The good thing about "The Writer's Journey" though is it's a really easy read. Vogler takes high-sounding concepts and unpacks them simply and concisely (for "mummy-brainers" like me, making me sound a lot smarter than I really feel!).Megan Sayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15410068162701570057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-40775038496720681032010-10-14T00:54:23.072-07:002010-10-14T00:54:23.072-07:00Wow, you are all far too smart for me. And everyon...Wow, you are all far too smart for me. And everyone here sounds like they know what they are talking about. I haven't heard all that much about this concept. Is there a list of archetypes in a book somewhere that you could point me to? Archetypes for Dummies perhaps...? ;) I'm fascinated. And I'd love to sound really smart too :)Karen @ a house full of sunshinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17787916466155321686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-52480103910990882802010-10-13T20:24:23.585-07:002010-10-13T20:24:23.585-07:00So, is there room to play the archetype off of the...So, is there room to play the archetype off of the stereotype? You have 2 pastors in Talking to the Dead. The "reverend" seems to be somewhat stereotypical, partly because we don't see his motivations so much as assume and infer from his actions (at the same time understanding there are those like him in life). Jack on the other hand we spend time with, and come to see his heart and personality.<br /><br />Or maybe, what you did is contrast the archetype with the shadow - oooooh - that is pretty literary how you snuck that one in.Steve Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332880875202358601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-65678998449912882822010-10-13T14:11:20.796-07:002010-10-13T14:11:20.796-07:00Yay! People!
Ariel: I hadn't thought of the Ol...Yay! People!<br />Ariel: I hadn't thought of the Older Brother as Warrior. Wow. Great insight there - and you're right, if the story concluded with just the one brother it would have still been the classic it is. With the two of them in there, it's epic. Thanks for that.<br /><br />Meg: You're so right, there are so many ways to purse a story - sometimes it's obvious which archetype we need to employ (writing in genre can often help with this choice), but often we need to study and consider before we begin. <br /><br />Megan: I agree about Henry - a classic shapeshifter archetype. And Niffenegger certainly knows her fantasy archetypes. She's brilliant in how she uses Henry's gift to confound not only Claire, but himself. Great example.<br /><br />Nikole: A great example of the Artist archetype. Yes, Dorian is not the painter, but he is absolutely the Artist, obsessed with beauty and perfection - at the cost of all else. A powerful use of archetypes.<br /><br />Great stuff, guys!!Bonnie Grovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-64083612990056959092010-10-13T13:42:57.658-07:002010-10-13T13:42:57.658-07:00Right now I am reading The Portrait of Dorian Gray...Right now I am reading The Portrait of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. The Artist is obsessive of Dorian and Dorian is the "sitter" for the artist. Dorian realizes he will grow old and his portrait won't grow old. He wails about his diminishing youth.Nikole Hahnhttp://www.thehahnhuntinglodge.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-34833266040036388032010-10-13T13:09:24.368-07:002010-10-13T13:09:24.368-07:00Good question Bonnie.
I found myself thinking a l...Good question Bonnie. <br />I found myself thinking a lot about The Time Traveller's Wife: Henry is the Hero, but also functions in the Shapeshifter archetype. Niffenegger also uses Henry as a Mentor to himself, as well as mentoring Claire, and then swaps things so the older Claire is Mentor to Henry, further illustrating the shapeshifting theme of the story.Megan Sayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15410068162701570057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-57017257220136415452010-10-13T13:05:14.672-07:002010-10-13T13:05:14.672-07:00I love this. I'm plotting a new story, so arch...I love this. I'm plotting a new story, so archetypes and quests are on my mind. There are so many angles to consider, but by the grace of God and a great deal of hard work, we can put it all together in a story that really means something. Thanks for a creativity-inspiring post.Meg Moseleyhttp://www.megmoseley.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-86398929886357372892010-10-13T11:37:44.253-07:002010-10-13T11:37:44.253-07:00No my dear Bonnie, we're all struck dumb by yo...No my dear Bonnie, we're all struck dumb by your erudite lesson. But you did get me thinking.<br /><br />Charles Dickens once called the parable of the prodigal son the "greatest story ever told." And I think that part of its power comes from a reliance on three strong archetypes: Father, Warrior (with a twist), and Rebel.<br /><br />These days I am most intrigued by the Warrior archetype in this story, the older brother. John Truby defines as warrior as "the practical enforcer of what is right." But in this instance it's become warped. The Dictionary of Biblical Images (I'm slightly obsessed with this book right now) suggests that the older brother has turned his desire for justice into a "middle-aged attitude that is dutiful, grudging, self-righteous, and unforgiving."<br /><br />That alone would make for an interesting story, but when contrasted against the Rebel younger brother it's genius.Ariel Allison Lawhonhttp://www.shereads.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-82939366857580756732010-10-13T10:27:46.049-07:002010-10-13T10:27:46.049-07:00CRICKETS! All I hear is the chirp of crickets on t...CRICKETS! All I hear is the chirp of crickets on the blog today!<br />I know! You're all reading and making notes on archetypes so you can come back later and enlighten us.<br />Right?<br /><br />Right?Bonnie Grovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-42441221881651871242010-10-13T07:37:01.933-07:002010-10-13T07:37:01.933-07:00It's true Wendy, so much of life feels like a ...It's true Wendy, so much of life feels like a search for meaning, love, and stability. A place we can plant our identity.<br />Peace Like a River is a lovely novel!<br />Reuben's archetype is difficult to pin down (at least from my memory), he reacts to his father (Wizard - I know he wasn't a wizard in the story, but his remarkable ability for miracles places him in this category in terms of archetypes) and his brother (Rebel), and serves as the stories narrator. . . hmmm.....Bonnie Grovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11377519561074174038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6360410252358941163.post-20764094918318600302010-10-13T06:54:44.779-07:002010-10-13T06:54:44.779-07:00Reuben, the sojourner, searching for his brother i...Reuben, the sojourner, searching for his brother in Peace Like a River. Don’t we all always find ourselves searching for something? And in the midst of finding he realizes what’s been with him all along. <br /><br />Could go on and on about this one.<br /><br />Awesome post.<br />~ WendyWendy Paine Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15136235074351188350noreply@blogger.com